Civility Is Overrated

At Politico, PR guy Mark DeMoss laments the lousy reception to the Civility Pledge he and Clinton hack Lanny Davis have been circulating:

It’s only 32 words. Yet, only two sitting members of Congress or governors have signed the civility pledge.


So what was it about civility that all the other 537 elected officials couldn’t agree to? Read it and decide for yourself.

  • I will be civil in my public discourse and behavior.
  • I will be respectful of others whether or not I agree with them. 
  • I will stand against incivility when I see it.

In May, Lanny Davis, my friend and co-founder of the Civility Project, and I sent a letter to all 535 members of Congress and 50 sitting governors inviting them to sign a civility pledge.


We made it easy, enclosing a response form, return envelope and fax number. I’m sorry to report, six months later, that only two responded: Rep. Frank Wolf (R-Va.) and Sen. Joe Lieberman (I-Conn.).

This is a shame, DeMoss says, because the American people are sick of how nasty the political discourse has become, and because incivility is just plain wrong:
We share a conviction about the importance of at least trying to change a polarizing, uncivil political culture that now appears to be the norm.

Call it old-fashioned, but we believe debates should be won on the strength of ideas and words — not on the volume of our voices or the outrageousness of our ads. Yet some emails I’ve received on our website are so filled with obscenities that they could not be printed in a newspaper.

Incivility is not just a political problem, according to Yale law professor Stephen Carter. “Rules of civility are thus rules of morality,” Carter said, “it is morally proper to treat our fellow citizens with respect, and morally improper not to. Our crisis of incivility is part of a larger crisis of morality.” 

I hate to fit someone’s definition of “morally improper,” but the fact is, there’s way too much hand-wringing over civility in politics these days. For one thing, sleazy invective, while lamentable, has been around since the beginning, so not only is this not some new development, but if it was going to destroy the country, it would have done so by now.

That’s not to say politicians should be given a pass for trafficking in lies and rumors, far from it. But that brings us to the second, and far more important, reason these guys are barking up the wrong tree: we currently define negativity and incivility so broadly that they’re not only virtually meaningless, but they actually serve to stifle a lot of things that need to be said.

Simply put, there are a lot of bad people active, and bad things done, in politics today, things that deserve not just disagreement, but demand moral condemnation. Advocating the murder of unborn babies, lying about an issue, defaming someone, trying to violate the Constitution, controlling free speech…all these things run deeper than mere disagreements between equally-decent people. These are things that should shock and disgust men and women of goodwill, and compel them to drive them out of the sphere of public respectability – along with their practitioners.

Instead, our “civility” obsession all too often leads to pitiful spectacles like playing dumb about the integrity of backstabbers, and meekly wondering why opponents believe vicious lies about us (here’s a hint: they don’t). Such rhetorical cowardice and incompetence enables the dishonest and the hateful to go about their business without serious challenge, all but ensuring a culture that’s less civil, not more.

Real civility is a fine value, but a healthy political culture needs to understand it’s not the highest value. Every American must hold truth and justice as more important than decorum.

Principled & Productive National Discourse, or a Culture of Grievance-Mongering?

Here we have another profile in sleaze from the Atheist Ethicist. Today the object of his ire is a column by the American Spectator’s Melanie Phillips, who argues:

I see this financial breakdown, moreover, as being not merely a moral crisis but the monetary expression of the broader degradation of our values – the erosion of duty and responsibility to others in favour of instant gratification, unlimited demands repackaged as ‘rights’ and the loss of self-discipline. And the root cause of that erosion is ‘militant atheism’ which, in junking religion, has destroyed our sense of anything beyond our material selves and the here and now and, through such hyper-individualism, paved the way for the onslaught on bedrock moral values expressed through such things as family breakdown and mass fatherlessness, educational collapse, widespread incivility, unprecedented levels of near psychopathic violent crime, epidemic drunkenness and drug abuse, the repudiation of all authority, the moral inversion of victim culture, the destruction of truth and objectivity and a corresponding rise in credulousness in the face of lies and propaganda — and intimidation and bullying to drive this agenda into public policy.

Alonzo, in his Herculean struggle against “anti-atheist bigotry,”
responds with an analogy to scapegoating Jews for society’s problems, which “had some very ugly consequences” (I seem to recall a term for this sort of thing—I guess it only applies to them there pro-life yahoos…), a claim that Phillips’ words are “trying to promote hatred and bigotry of” atheists (predictably, he doesn’t bother to actually assemble a case that her words constitute anything of the sort; he just assumes it as a given), and whiny outrage that she isn’t “fighting for her job.”

Once again we see that our hero’s casual acquaintance with truth (or just sloppy reading skills; take your pick) strikes again. Look back at Phillips’ column, and you’ll see she talks specifically about “militant atheism” (geez, she even put it in quotes), and goes on to explain what she means by that—a specific mindset, a specific strain of atheism. As I’ve said before, public consideration of atheism’s (or any religion’s, for that matter) intellectual and moral merits is not bigotry, because religious belief and lack thereof are prisms through which we see the world, with ramifications relevant to society. Clearly, Phillips was not blaming the average skeptic for the financial breakdown; she was making the point that the expansion of a particular mentality in society has had a detrimental effect.
Right or wrong, it’s not bigotry, but a debatable sociological proposition based on her worldview and observations. Any punk with a keyboard and an Internet connection can call those with whom he disagrees names, or wish their careers were in jeopardy. It takes another kind of man entirely to engage an argument head-on.

But the Atheist Ethicist, it would seem, is interested in no such thing. He’s not interested in what Melanie Phillips actually said, but in grievance-mongering. According to the Alonzo Fyfe standard, it’s apparently not possible to criticize any aspect of atheism, any sub-group or sub-mindset within atheism, and not have it seen as bigotry against the entire atheist community. The state of public discourse in this country is already abysmal; the last thing we need is this sort of thing corrupting it further still.

Atheists Crying Wolf, Part 1

A while back I took on charges of anti-atheist bigotry leveled against an Illinois lawmaker by atheist blogger Alonzo Fyfe. Beyond that, Fyfe claims a whole host of things amount to prejudice against poor, innocent atheists:

(1) A sitting president said that atheists are not fit to be judges – and the statement can still be found on the
White House’s own web site.”[W]e need common-sense judges who understand that our rights were derived from God. And those are the kind of judges I intend to put on the bench.”

(2) We have atheists who stand and feign support for a Pledge of Allegiance that says, “As far as this government is concerned, atheists (those not ‘under god’) are the moral equivalent of those who would commit themselves to rebellion, tyranny, and injustice for all.”

(3) We have a national motto on our money and going up in more and more places in this country that says, “If you do not trust in God, you are not one of us.”

(4) Atheists are routinely blamed for everything from terrorist attacks to school shootings to hurricanes to the Holocaust.

(5) On this latter point, there is a movie that will officially debut around the country on April 18th that is making a blatant attempt to link atheism to the Holocaust.


I intend to show that these victim-centric interpretations are wrong, and that, when not distorted by atheist activists, none of them constitute bigotry against those who don’t believe in God. My case will be divided into three posts: this one on atheism and the judiciary, a second on ceremonial references to God & religious symbolism, and a third on atheism and violence.

(1) “[W]e need common-sense judges who understand that our rights were derived from God.” President Bush is right, and if a statement like this is enough to send Fyfe flying off the handle, methinks he needs to re-read the Declaration of Independence, brush up on American history, and take a couple deep breaths.

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights.” So says the Declaration of Independence, the guiding light of American governance. Examples of the Founding Fathers echoing and elaborating upon this sentiment are abundant. John Locke’s Second Treatise of Civil Government assumes men to be “the workmanship of one omnipotent and infinitely wise Maker.” The concept that our rights come from God was a sharp departure from prior conceptions that rights originated either from government or from cultural lineage. Its implications are powerful: it divorces human rights from intellectual, physical, or racial superiority, or from bloodline. All individuals deserve equal treatment simply because they are human beings. Accordingly, under this conception of God-given rights, government becomes a servant of the people, rather than the master.

If one believes in judicial originalism, that the purpose of judges is to faithfully glean and apply the original meaning and intentions of a law, then why wouldn’t it be legitimate to consider a potential judge’s understanding of the Framers’ conception of rights? A judge who sees our rights as God-given understands that he doesn’t have the authority to thwart them by judicial fiat, no matter how much he might think his personal views on any given case might be better. I, for one, think that sort of humility is highly desirable in a public figure, especially one wielding the power of an unelected, unaccountable, lifetime position.

Granted, the Constitution
prohibits faith-based legal disqualifications from public office, and Bush didn’t propose any. But that isn’t the same as the individual in charge of choosing a candidate—the executive making his appointments or the voter casting his ballot—having a preference for the type of ideas which he or she believes can best serve the office. Unlike skin color or sex, religion and atheism are ideas (or the absence of particular ideas) with implications relevant to society. Therefore, it’s reasonable for people to use them as criteria when judging potential public officials. Surely many atheists think believing Christians are less-than ideal officeholders, as is their prerogative. I’d passionately disagree, of course, but it’s not bigotry to take religion, or lack thereof, into consideration. Then again, perhaps the actual goal isn’t tolerance, but rather to insulate one’s worldview, via intimidation if necessary, from critical evaluation by the people.
By all means, atheists like Alonzo Fyfe should have equal opportunity to seek public office. But that doesn’t mean they get to pretend the philosophical foundations of the nation never existed, or to exempt their ideas from public consideration.

Give Me a Break!

Currently watching Hannity’s America. “Civil rights activist” Ron Daniels just said Louis Farrakhan isn’t an anti-Semite, because saying “Judaism is a gutter religion” doesn’t really mean he hates Judaism and its practitioners; instead, it’s just a critique that Jews don’t always practice what they preach.
These apologists are a dime-a-dozen, but it is noteworthy that Sean Hannity treats this fraud with kid gloves. Indeed, is there any heinous left-winger he won’t deem a “good friend?”

The McCain Record at a Glance

The following is a concise compilation of John McCain’s almost universally awful record. It is adapted and expanded from a previous post for easy reference:

Senator John McCain is the New York Times’
candidate of choice for obvious reasons:

According to the Club for Growth, his “
overall record is tainted by a marked antipathy towards the free market and individual freedom,” and his American Conservative Union scores are not nearly as reassuring as his proponents claim.

Senator Rick Santorum
accuses him of repeatedly obstructing progress on Senate battles over social issues (which, by his own admission, he doesn’t “care about”), he still supports embryo-destructive research, despite continuing advancements in adult stem cells, and he condemned the Federal Marriage Amendment as “un-Republican.”

He has
a problematic record on guns, he is a demagogic amnesty fundamentalist whose campaign employs such odious figures as Juan Hernandez and Jerry Perenchio, he cannot be trusted to appoint originalist judges (after all, he voted to confirm Ruth Bader Ginsburg), and he adopts the Left’s conventional wisdom on environmental issues.

Despite his heroic military service and his commitment to victory in Iraq, his leadership on
most other aspects of the War on Terror would be disastrous. He claimed John Kerry was not “weak on defense,” and he called the actions of Vietnam veterans who challenged Kerry “dishonest and deplorable.”

He is also a pathological liar who
took advantage of a demagogic smear against then-governor George W. Bush in 2000 and has told bald-faced-lies about Governor Mitt Romney this time around. Indeed, he has a history of saving his harshest contempt for his fellow Republicans, but he’s “very close” with his friend Hillary Clinton.

As if that weren’t enough cause for wariness, he has spelled it out for us multiple times: in the midst of the battle to re-elect President Bush,
he said “I think the Democratic Party is a fine party, and I have no problems with it, in their views and their philosophy,” he flirted with the possibility of being John Kerry’s running mate, and there’s reason to suspect he considered actually becoming a Democrat in 2001.

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Maverick Huntin’ Season

Tonight, Ann Coulter and Michelle Malkin both take aim at John McCain.

From Ann:

Of course, I might lie constantly too, if I were seeking the Republican presidential nomination after enthusiastically promoting amnesty for illegal aliens, Social Security credit for illegal aliens, criminal trials for terrorists, stem-cell research on human embryos, crackpot global warming legislation and free speech-crushing campaign-finance laws. I might lie too, if I had opposed the Bush tax cuts, a marriage amendment to the Constitution, waterboarding terrorists and drilling in Alaska. And I might lie if I had called the ads of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth “dishonest and dishonorable.”

From Michelle:

Not all of us have forgotten how the short-fused Arizona senator cursed good-faith opponents in his own party (“F**k you!” and “Chickensh*t” were the choice words he had for Texas GOP Senator John Cornyn during a spat over enforcement provisions). Not all of us have forgotten that he voted against barring felons from receiving amnesty benefits under his plan. Not all of us have forgotten the underhanded, debate-sabotaging manner in which McCain, Kennedy, Lindsey Graham, and Harry Reid conspired to ram their package down voters’ throats.

Read ‘em both.

Pathetic

I’ve never thought too highly of Wisconsin blogger and frequent Boots & Sabers commenter Scott Feldstein, but now he’s hit a new low. On December 19 he wrote an irate post about how morally inferior those of us who support torture of terrorists in certain circumstances are. The (censored) highlights:

When the f*** did we start condoning state sanctioned torture? Raise your hand right now if you’re for torture. I’ll make a list of people whom I would not let walk my dog, let alone have any position of responsibility or judgement. A list of moral retards…Anyone who wants to trade their souls for some perceived security is a chickens*** motherf***er who should be kept far away from small children and sharp objects.

Of course, we know waterboarding
has worked, and a lot of innocent American civilians could very well be dead today if Feldstein had his way. Oh, and this guy’s concern about human rights, compassion, and the US’s moral credibility is wholly selective—predictably, he supports killing innocent babies. Phony.

As pathetic as all this is, it isn’t what spurred me to write this post. In the comments section, we see the following exchange:

MIKE: being a fomer us marine if it saves only one of my brothers im all for it,fight fire with fire. it is clear to me none of you have ever been to a combat zone or have ever served this great nation! its called war for a reason.suck it up butter cups!

SCOTT: It’s clear to me, Mike, that you don’t really understand what makes our nation great in the first place.

MIKE: Your telling a us marine he doesnt understand what makes his nation great ! its people like me that went to somolia ,the gulf .i earned my f***ing stay, what the f*** have you done? just keep running your sewer we all need a breeze

SCOTT: I stand by what I said, Mike. One of the things that makes our nation great is the fact that we have respect for individual liberty and human rights. One of the chief manifestations of this value is the fact that we don’t torture people. I won’t give up my values for safety (real or perceived). How about you? Thanks for your service, by the way. As for what I’ve done, I earn the money that pays your salary.

Where does this twerp get off thinking he can tell an American serviceman he doesn’t understand his country’s greatness? The arrogance, the sense of innate superiority, is stunning. What a pathetic, disgusting hypocrite.

Attack of the Fredheads

Y’all know I’m a harsh critic of Fred Thompson, putting me at odds with a hefty chunk of the blogosphere. Fortunately, the Fredheads I’ve known, such as Olbroad and Silent E, are terrific folks. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said of the Fredheads at Thompson’s official site. Hoping to either find some clarification I’d missed or change a few minds, I entered the discussion on this thread about Thompson’s speech before the Values Voters Summit (registration is required to post & view comments. It’s free, but you do have to leave a mailing address, so you can probably expect junk mail. Hopefully it isn’t written by the following dolts.). What follows is a partial transcript of our exchange, with some post-game commentary added in red. The last names have been removed to protect the ignorant- er, innocent, but the original grammar, spelling & punctuation have been preserved for comedic value.



ME: Anybody ever notice that there’s something kinda important missing here? Fred likes to speak in the general about the sanctity of life, but Fred’s opposition to criminalizing abortion is far more recent than the other pro-life convert in the race (If we’re not supposed to trust Romney ‘cuz 2005 is too recent ton convert, then Fred’s worse –
he said this to Sean Hannity THIS YEAR!). Can anyone tell me where Thompson has outlined just HOW he plans to implement his pro-life principles, beyond simply overturning Roe?

ROBERT: Nice try Fred’s Pro Life your spinning lol [Yup, things are gonna go downhill reaaaal quick.]

ME: Huh?

ROBERT: Calvin read Fred’s Issues and Principles he said yesterday he would VETO anything that was pro abortion.

ME: Vetoing efforts to expand abortion is not the same as proactively working to end it. You dodged the fact that I just gave you video from THIS YEAR where Fred suggests he doesn’t want abortion criminalized.

ROBERT: Bye

ME: “Bye?” How does that refute anything I said?

KRELL: Robert -You’re dealing with a person that lacks the motivation to go and read Fred’s positions, on this site, and the intelligence to put all this together with Fred’s comments. Calvin seems to not read what is there but, rather, what he wants to be there. [Translation: Danger, Will Robinson! Circle the wagons! Deploy defensive ad hominem!] He’s beginning to sound very much like a Ron Paulite. [I sound like a Paulite? Oh, the sweet, delicious irony!]

ROBERT: Bye I dont need your advice on how and who I vote for you go vote for your guy and I will vote for my guy at this point anyone undecided is brain dead any way [Somebody’s brain-dead, at any rate…seriously, though, if undecideds are to be trashed and nobody else is gonna change his mind anyway, why the heck does Bobby bother to participate at all? Aren’t all campaign blogs a waste of time?]

ME: OK Robert, better luck next time. Krell, do you really think responding to objections about Fred with empty, obnoxious personal attacks reflects well on you, or this website? If so, that’s your loss.

KATHLEEN: I just wrote my first contribution check to a politician EVER. (My husband did, too.) I believe that Sen. Fred Thompson has the vision and priciples needed to lead this country. I urge Mr. Freiburger to check out
a spot on this site. (I was previously referred there to answer my concerns about “specifics”)

ME: Kathleen, I’ve been to that page several times already. Those aren’t specifics by a long shot. I already know about his RTL voting record, too. But I want somebody to be able to tell me where Fred has made himself clear on any of the following:
– Banning abortion at the state level
– Banning abortion congressionally
– The Human Life Amendment

[Indeed, all that Thompson’s “Principles” page says about abortion is that families are “built around the sanctity of life” and that he would use “the Presidency to encourage policies that promote a culture of life.” This is really odious: Fred sprinkles his rhetoric with pro-life buzz phrases and thinks that gets him out of having to grapple with the entirety of the issue. Let the buyer beware; Fred’s obviously not the straight-talk candidate as advertised.]

JOHN: You are obviously here to create trouble. [Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!] Any intelligent person would already know that any such legislation would be an act of futility just like the democrats have been doing with SCHIP, Armenian genocide declarations, Rush Limbaugh reprimand letters. The best way to end abortions is through appointing conservatives to the supreme court which Fred has pledged he would do many many times. Who did President Bush choose to help get Chief Justice Roberts nomination through the appointment process? [Yes, Fred wants Roe overturned. Good for him. But everybody knows that would not “end abortions;” it would simply enable the people to decide abortion policy once again. There’d still be a long way to go. More importantly, if you believe nominating judges is the only thing a president can do about abortion, you’ve pretty much just made the case for Rudy Giuliani, as well.] The difference between Fred and the other GOP front runners is that he has NEVER supported abortions. They all claim to support appointing conservative judges but only Fred has always been pro-life. [Wrong! John is clueless about his own candidate, as we’ll see below.] Fred leads, the other guys follow. Just like coming to Rush Limbaugh’s defense when he was being attacked on the senate floor. Romney and McCain both said Rush should apologize and it wasn’t until Fred stood up and defended Rush that the other candidates quickly fell in behind Fred with staements supporting Rush. Contenders and Pretenders. We know which one our candidate is! Do you? [Ah, isn’t off-topic rambling grand? Reminds me of that twit “things come undone” from
YouStinkLeft…I will say that Fred deserves cheers, and the others jeers, for the Rush/phony soldiers controversy, however. The Fredheads might do well to observe that serious observers are capable of giving their own criticism, and their opponents credit, when justified…]

ME: “Here to create trouble?” Tell me, John, is “impugn their motives” simply your knee-jerk reaction to anyone who voices disagreement? I came here because 2008 is an important decision, and Fred deserves the same level of scrutiny as everyone else. “Fred has always been pro-life?” I’m sorry to hear that you don’t seem know terribly much about your candidate’s record.
Fred Thompson circa 1994: “Government should stay out of it. No public financing. The ultimate decision must be made by the woman. Government should treat its citizens as adults capable of making moral decisions on their own.” This, along with the video I linked to above, should make people think a second time about Fred. Lastly, it’s telling that you call actual pro-life legislation “acts of futility.” Serious pro-lifers know that overturning Roe, while a great moment, is just a first step.

KRELL: Calvin, who is your candidate? ““This, along with the video I linked to above, should make people think a second time about Fred.” It doesn’t sound to me like you are a Fred Thompson supporter. [Figured that out all by yourself, did you?]

ME: That’s because I’m not a Fred Thompson supporter. I support Mitt Romney. My reasons are explained at my blog [Fred
here and Mitt here]. My choice was made based on the entirety of their records. I’m well aware of the flip-flop charges against Romney, but as I’ve shown, Fred flip-flopped on abortion, too – and much more recently. If you wanna debate the relative merits of each candidate overall, please stop on over to my blog sometime.

ANDY: Banning abortion at the state level—Not the President’s job, nor should it be. It’s called federalism, read up on it. [I didn’t claim it should be. A candidate’s views here matter because a pro-life president ought to set a moral example, draw attention to the plight of the unborn, and urge people to do the right thing state-by-state. It’s called leadership; read up on it.] Banning abortion congressionally—Can’t happen unless RvW is overturned. [So what? I thought we were all in agreement that we need judges who will overturn Roe.] Even then, it would likely never pass. [Maybe not within the next several sessions of Congress, but the whole point of politics—and that pesky “leadership” thing—is to work proactively to shape public opinion in effort to build support for legislative goals like this in the long term. Plus, by Andy’s logic everybody should support Giuliani, since most head-to-head polls have shown all the other candidates failing to Hillary Clinton.] The Human Life Amendment—The bar is far too high for this to be an accomplishable goal. [See above. While we’re on the subject of constitutional amendments, though, I’d like to point out that Fred’s alternative marriage amendment (the “Diet FMA,” if you will) would face the same high bar, yet would be highly unlikely to motivate numbers of voters comparable to the actual FMA (for reasons I plan on addressing in a near-future post). Who’s got his head in the clouds?]

So, what can we do? Appoint proper judges to address the problem and get rid of the judicial tyranny that has caused the death of over 40 million Americans. [Again, plenty of those deaths will keep happening post-Roe.]

Fred will tell you himself that while he considered the abortion battle back in the 90’s to be little more than a political football that both sides were throwing at each other, he has always come down on the side of life. [Did Fred come down on the side of life when he said “the ultimate decision must be made by the woman?” When he suggested to Hannity he wasn’t interested in going further on abortion than overturning Roe? When he
lobbied to relax federal abortion restrictions? What about in several of these instances? Andy’s either very uninformed, or he’s lying.] His commitment to the pro-life movement was strengthened when he saw the sonogram of little Hayden.

Now, you can pretend that this is some kind of late conversion. If you’re a Romney supporter, you can pretend that there’s some kind of moral equivalency between Romney’s steadfast support of a woman’s ‘right’ to kill her offspring and Fred Thompson’s dislike of the politics of the abortion movement. [While we’re on the subject of my man Mitt, it bears mentioning that I don’t have a different standard for him that I do for Fred. My point is that his comments should be especially concerning from a man who can’t give us a straight answer today about where exactly he stands. And you don’t hear any of us Romney supporters trying to claim our guy has always been pro-life. Fred supported the exact same “right.” There’s no way to describe Andy’s characterization as anything other than dishonest.]

Pretend anything you like, but I’ll take a guy who was on our side [no, he wasn’t] and got more serious about it over time over a guy who was 100% against our side and decided to do a 180 degree flip just so he could run for president [Embryology opens a lot of eyes, Romney openly admits that he was wrong, and as governor
he was far from “100% against” us.] any day of the week and twice on Sunday. [Funny how Andy insists he’s on “our” side, but he happens to believe that every pro-life measure beyond overturning Roe would be a waste of time. Does not compute…]

JOHN: Thompson now says he is pro-life and calls Roe “bad law.” It must also be pointed out that during his 8-year career in the Senate, his voting record was solidly pro-life. [I know he calls himself pro-life. That’s my point—we’ve never had a clear explanation of what constitutes “pro-life” in Fred Thompson’s book. And his voting record, which I’ve
addressed before, is good, but he didn’t vote on the central issue of a general abortion ban. The question remains open. Now, to Thompson’s credit he has said authorities “can do whatever they want to with abortion doctors, as far as I’m concerned,” but notice the use of “they.” He’s detaching himself from the debate. That’s not straight talk or leadership.]

Your link only supports Fred’s position. [No, it has Fred dead-to-rights as a pro-choicer.] Nice attempt to put a spin on his position. [Shoddy attempt to lie for your candidate.] Won’t work here! [Only ‘cuz you’re all neck-deep in Kool-Aid. Or illiterate; I’m not sure which.] With a democratic majority in the house and the senate, any legislation banning or making abortion illegal would be futile just as I have already stated. The first step would be to appoint more constructionist conservative judges. Getting congress back into a GOP majority would be necessary to do any of the things you propose. [Umm…duh?] Fred’s position on this issue is one of strength when compared to the records of his opponents. [Let’s see…Rudy, Mitt & McCain all advocate appointing strict constructionists, with the latter two openly desirous that Roe be overturned. Furthermore, Romney
supports the Human Life Amendment as part of a long-term goal to end abortion. Whose position is one of strength?] Nice try though Calvin the “troll”! [What an idiot…] Maybe you could dig up some more stuff from your DailyKos, MediaMatters and MoveOn.org sources with better credibility. [John-Boy sure has some nerve lecturing people on credibility, considering everything above.]

JOHN: Calvin, Since you are a troll [That’s me, Rumplestilzken!] and you are so adept at digging, [Actually, you don’t have to dig much before Fred’s fairytale allure starts to wear off.] please find just one singular vote that Fred has EVER made on the side of pro-abortion and come back to post it here. [Well, pro-lifers weren’t too thrilled with his votes for McCain-Feingold…] Only problem I have with your weak article is it only says Fred was solidly on the side of life and doesn’t give him the 100% endorsement on the side of life which we all know he was. If he had EVER cast a single vote on the side of choice it would have already been well publicized and thrown into his face a thousand times. [Voting records are useful, but they’re ultimately insufficient, because they only cover the aspects of an issue that happen to reach the Senate floor.] Problem for the trolls like you is that he has a 100% pro-life voting record so therefore you must scour the globe for some comments that the media twisted their own spin on. [When all else fails, blame the media! Here’s your challenge, John: explain to me how Thompson’s direct words, “The ultimate decision must be made by the woman. Government should treat its citizens as adults capable of making moral decisions on their own,” can be characterized as anything other than an endorsement of the right to abortion.] It won’t work here. [“Cuz we’re illiterate!”] And your weak little statement about giving Fred a fair level of scrutiny, the others are being scrutinized because they are either still pro-choice or have been in their pasts. [So was Fred.] They are simply being dragged out into the light kicking and screaming. [And now it’s Fred’s turn, no matter how much you want to maintain your sleazy little double-standard.] Which screamer is yours? LMAO

ROBERT: go Mitt lol go lol coubullgh cougshouit [What are you, twelve?]

ROBERT: Seek the Information and ye shall find its out there

ME: I’d advise you to do the same.

ROBERT: I have and I support Fred Your negative posts do nothing but stregthen my support for Fred Thompson thanks for the energy [This might be impressive, if only Rob had, oh, I don’t know…refuted my “negative” posts. Here it’s just pathetic.]

ROBERT: P.S. who are you supporting maybe we can enlighten you as you have us

ROBERT: Calvin here is a fred’s speech yesterday [
PDF link] go read it . send me your Candadates speech and I will read it Fair and Balanced

JOHN: Perhaps this is NoWay’s new screen name. [Ha! This paranoia is just a riot!] Funny how the trolls like to remain in the shadows about who they support. Expect a lot more of these types as Fred surges into the lead. [The fact that these bozos continue on this thread about my candidate being a secret, even after I said it, is hilarious too.]

ME: Guys, if you can muster the strength to read, scroll up a little, and you’ll find I already said who I support: Mitt Romney.

STEPHANIE: Once Fred gets ahold of Mitt, Mitt will be toast. Tell me, how did Romney vote on abortion in MA. [Uh, governors don’t vote…] With his rhetoric back then, I’d say his abortion voting record is nowhere near perfect like Fred’s is. [Stephanie, did you do anything other than skim my arguments? Debating people who ignore basic facts is getting old. On a related note, I think it’s ironic that elsewhere in the thread, Steph says Ron Paul’s “supporters are like a bunch of lemmings that would more than likely follow the guy off a cliff if he jumped.” Pot, meet kettle.]

ROBERT: You need to go go support Romney after sunday he will need a hug [What is this, an elementary-school playground where sophomoric taunts are the stock in trade?]

ME: Hmm. Here I was, hoping for a serious debate about serious issues, and instead I find a bunch of juveniles who aren’t really interested about anything more than cheerleading for somebody they’ve built up into some sort of golden idol who must NEVER be criticized.

What an embarrassment. Conservatives are typically capable of so much better.

You had the chance to make a case for Fred to me. And you blew it big-time. Since the majority of you are unwilling (or simply unable) to defend your candidate in a mature, principled way (and since this is obvious to anyone who hasn’t drunk the Kool-Aid), I’d probably be wasting my time pursuing this any further. And so, adieu.

JOHN: Good bye Troll, and good riddance! Don’t let the door hit ya, where the good Lord split ya! [Ouch, Johnny! You really got me there!]

ROBERT: Mitt Romney LMAO sorry I will not be going to his site. [It’s just as well. They sometimes use big words
over there.] I know what he said to get elected to Mass so you cant erase the Video Bye Bye now [Neither can you. But unlike you hypocrites, I’ve never tried to whitewash my guy’s flaws.] I thought you were a Ron Paul nut when you were talking Pro Life but to think Romney is more Pro Life than Thompson is ignorance [No, it’s simple: Romney supports the Human Life Amendment, Thompson doesn’t.]

JOHN: From everything Calvin posted he was NOT here for any debating, he was here for some Fred bashing. [I tried, Rat-Boy. You guys responded to points with insults. Good luck wiping this stain off your record.] He can go back to any one of his many liberal democratic sites to do that.

JOHN: If you will notice, Calvin did not prop up another candidate to compare with Fred on the abortion issue. Instead he chose to try to persuade us that Fred is no better than the rest of the pack. In other words to drag down our guy to the level of his candidate whoever that may be. [If you guys had been up for an actual debate, I would’ve loved to have made the case would be better for the right to life than Thompson. I’m sorry you chose instead to derail things.] His notion that he came in here with an open mind and could have been “won” over is pure trash as evident by the garbage he posted. [For any of these Kool-Aid-drunk zombies to lecture anyone else about open-mindedness is the real “garbage.”]

MATT: I will say this once…A Mormon will not win the executive seat..no matter how this race is won…if mitt can’t win Alabama…he has no shot of being president… [We’ll see about that…] Calvin you’re a nitwit…I’m willing to take the odds on a democrat over Mitt..any day of the week. John Mccain an Fred Thompson are the only two who can upend her because they’re real men. [Sorry, dude, that might be considered persuasive on the playground, in the locker room, or at the pub, but here it’s just lame.]



That’s the extent of my fight with them (‘till I give ‘em the link to this post, that is), but elsewhere in the thread, several more whoppers can be found. For instance, too bad John didn’t take his own advice that “Attacking anyone with a critique of Fred’s performance will not be helpful to Freds campaign. It is okay to disagree, but lets not attack each other and demean somebody elses opinions.” I guess he forgot when I came in. The “Sycophant of the Month” award goes to BJ, who told somebody to “Trust the man! He really knows what he is doing and his plan is to confound the pundits and the media with the American people uniting behind his common sense, down to earth I’ll tell you when I’m damn good and ready views.” If many people actually consider that good advice, then God help us all…

Interestingly, at one point
Sean Hackbarth comes in with an admonition to keep things civil. Robert & Krell simmer down; Jeff, however, says “ but its plain to see when there are….shall I say, ‘less’ than genuine opinions expressed and I personally think the should be ‘Called out’.” Now, I know that phonies & trolls are real phenomena, but these guys seem to go beyond caution and into paranoia. Of course, they reverted to uncivil form with me, without sanction.

I think my favorite part, though, is when they go into total tinfoil-hat mode over some sort of imaginary anti-Fred bias at Fox News Channel, and decide FNC should be boycotted as punishment. Thompson’s had how many exclusive, free-ride interviews with Sean Hannity by now? Utterly delusional…

The close second would be Stephanie. Responding to Jake’s criticism of Thompson’s marriage stance, the unhinged Steph says: “Jake you are either a homo yourself and are trying to hide it by TRYING to get all of us not to support Fred because of this one issue.” Indeed.

I know that whenever you challenge somebody’s beliefs you can expect some hostility, but I honestly wasn’t expecting to find a blend of stupid, juvenile & dishonest of this magnitude, a right-wing equivalent of a
Daily Kos thread. “Cyberspace is big, and there are a lot of losers in it. So what?” I don’t doubt there are similar clowns embarrassing themselves on behalf of the other candidates, but I happen to think this encounter highlights something important: we as conservatives must hold ourselves to higher standards—of honesty, of independence, self-reflection, of maturity—than the Left does. If we aren’t even doing that at one of our presidential frontrunners’ official websites, the Right has a problem. The presidency is too important to compromise our principles or give free rides to any leader, and it’s especially too important to be decided by cults of personality, the likes of which have built Fred Thompson into some sort of storybook hero.